EP 9: Remote or Hybrid? Navigating the Modern Work Landscape

[00:00:49] Adriaan: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Leaders in Talent podcast. Today with me is Nikki Scarr. Nikki is a global HR leader with nearly two decades of experience in human resources. She currently works in a leadership partnership role at BVI Medical, where she helps drive HR strategy and organizational success across the world, leading a global team.

[00:01:14] Adriaan: Nikki is also a veteran from the British Army. She brings a unique perspective to leadership, grounded in a sense of purpose and connection to both mission and colleagues, and the ability to build high-performance teams. She’s an advocate for flexible hybrid work models and is passionate about creating inclusive, engaging workplaces that support both businesses in their success and employee well-being. Nikki, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:40] Nikki: Thank you so much for having me. That sounds delightful.

[00:01:43] Adriaan: Nikki, so interesting and so relevant, right? We have in recent news, recent times, a lot of especially big corporates, big tech companies, moving from “anyone can work from anywhere” to “five days back to the office.” If you don’t like it, you can go and find a job somewhere else. Yeah. What’s your perspective, and why do you care about this so much?

[00:02:08] Nikki: It’s really concerning, isn’t it? We’ve had solid evidence that flexible working can really work well. And hybrid working in particular works really well.

[00:02:16] Nikki: I’ve seen it firsthand. I have seen better outcomes for both employees and companies and the positive impact on D&I. One of my previous companies took part in a study with London Business School back in 2017, way before COVID. It centered around providing our people with freedom to structure the day as they saw fit and what worked for them.

[00:02:35] Nikki: That study found that performance improved in the presence of autonomy, and the organization then implemented flexible working with a policy—which is quite common now—of three days in the office and two days remote.

[00:03:29] Nikki: And we did a bit of additional flex on top of that, giving that autonomy. And it was fantastic. It led to great talent attraction and retention. And I’ve seen it really work.

[00:03:50] Nikki: So my concern is that this whole five days back into the office mandate is likely to backfire for organizations. I think they risk losing top talent.

[00:03:55] Nikki: Especially where we’ve embraced the flexibility of remote or hybrid work. People have moved further out of cities. They’ve set their lives up around these things.

[00:04:10] Nikki: I’ve seen a couple of studies recently. One from Future Forum—they’re pretty good at talking about flexible working. They said 78%, I think, of people want flexible options in terms of vacation. And 95 percent of people want some sort of flexibility in their lives because our lives are hard. They’re hard. It’s hard to put everything in.

[00:04:34] Nikki: Then the other one that I read recently was Nicholas Bloom. He’s done the China study for working from home. And he found that working from home two days a week is just as productive, likely to get more promoted, and far less likely to quit.

[00:04:56] Nikki: So there’s been some studies that have talked about productivity, and that’s what we’re seeing in the press a lot recently. But that’s completely linked to full isolation. The studies I’ve read about full remote working link productivity to people feeling isolated.

[00:05:18] Nikki: So, we’ve talked previously, and I think some in-person connection is really important.

[00:05:23] Adriaan: And also, some of the articles I’m reading make me cynical. Is this not a way to get rid of 10, 15, maybe even 20 percent of headcount? What’s your take there?

[00:05:36] Nikki: I think you’re probably right.

[00:05:39] Adriaan: Yeah.

[00:05:42] Nikki: But the thing is, my view would be you’re going to lose the great people. You’re going to lose your top talent. You’re going to lose the people that you want to retain—not the people that, if you’re looking to reduce your workforce, are less engaged or misaligned to your culture.

[00:05:57] Adriaan: Walmart recently announced as well that it’s requiring everyone back to the office. Their CTO resigned and said, “I’m sorry, I’m not moving there. I’ve got my family, I’ve got my life here. You hired me fully remote.” He traveled a lot but wasn’t willing to relocate.

[00:06:12] Adriaan: I wonder how that conversation went in the boardroom when they came up with this rule, and then the CTO decides to resign.

[00:06:20] Nikki: I think it would have been tricky.

[00:06:21] Adriaan: There are different advocates. I’ve been speaking to a lot of leaders.

[00:06:24] Adriaan: At Matchr, we went from an office-first culture—where we had some flexibility with one day of remote work at our office in Kyiv, Ukraine—to fully remote during COVID, and now becoming a fully distributed team.

[00:06:45] Adriaan: Before making that decision, I had a conversation with Job van der Voort, CEO and founder of Remote.com. He’s a big advocate of fully remote work. He worked at GitLab, a fully distributed company, and now runs Remote.com, which has about 1,500 people and is fully remote.

[00:07:10] Adriaan: He believes hybrid is the hardest model to make work because it combines the worst of two worlds. Some CEOs I’ve spoken to, on the other hand, insist everyone should come back to the office because it fosters culture and energy.

[00:07:23] Adriaan: Tell me more about why you feel hybrid works well. What kind of dynamic does it create, and what should companies do thoughtfully if they want people to meet in person a couple of times a week?

[00:07:34] Nikki: Why do I think hybrid is really important? I think it’s crucial for creating a sense of connection.

[00:07:36] Nikki: I work in a fully remote role now, but I still travel to sites, meet people, and foster that sense of connection. You can develop that connection remotely—absolutely, you can. Let me share a story.

[00:07:55] Nikki: I joined Abcam, my last organization, at the start of COVID. I had been there for only six weeks when COVID hit. Because I was in a global role, I hadn’t yet traveled and met most people. I worked there for two years before meeting many of my international colleagues in person.

[00:08:14] Nikki: The moment borders opened, I jumped on a flight to the U.S. to meet colleagues. One of them picked me up from the hotel that night and took me to a nail salon because it was my birthday.

[00:08:29] Nikki: As we sat chatting, the beautician asked, “Are you two old friends?” My colleague said, “No, we just met today.” That was because we had fostered a really strong relationship over two years entirely remotely. But it took effort.

[00:08:50] Nikki: Remote relationships require time, effort, and intention. My colleague and I are still in contact, and we’ve seen each other many times since.

[00:09:12] Nikki: For organizations, it starts with trust. You’ve got to trust people to do their jobs and treat them like responsible adults. Set clear expectations—it’s key whether you’re remote, hybrid, or in the office.

[00:09:43] Nikki: But when you’re hybrid or remote, you need to make an extra effort to communicate deliverables, collaborate effectively, and ensure one-on-one connections are a priority. Regular touchpoints and clarity help foster that sense of connection.

[00:09:52] Adriaan: And currently, you have a three-day-in-the-office policy with two days remote, right?

[00:09:59] Nikki: My previous organization did. Where I work now, many senior leaders are fully remote because we’re in global roles. My closest site is two hours away, but I’ll visit tomorrow for town halls and meetings. It’s a manufacturing environment, so it’s slightly different.

[00:10:15] Adriaan: In your previous company, the three-days-in-office policy—how did you come up with that framework? How was it communicated, and what did those three days in the office look like?

[00:10:36] Nikki: The framework came from the London Business School study, which found that three days in the office was optimal for productivity and engagement.

[00:10:43] Nikki: In practice, it could be tricky. We didn’t mandate specific days for employees to come in, so most people chose Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. That created a great collaborative environment mid-week, but Mondays and Fridays were very quiet.

[00:11:01] Nikki: The challenge for organizations is creating meaningful collaboration when people are on-site. Hybrid doesn’t work if people show up to the office just to continue their regular day-to-day work.

[00:12:02] Nikki: For example, we found that strategy off-sites, brainstorming days, or other purposeful gatherings work best. It’s about bringing people together for specific reasons and creating that connection.

[00:12:46] Nikki: Nobody wants to commute to an office only to spend the day on Teams calls in a room by themselves. It’s not sustainable.

[00:13:12] Adriaan: Exactly. How do return-to-office policies impact diversity and inclusion (D&I), particularly in attracting diverse talent?

[00:13:22] Nikki: As a working parent myself, I can tell you it’s tough if you don’t have support. Rigid office mandates disproportionately impact women, caregivers, and underrepresented groups.

[00:13:43] Nikki: Statistically, hybrid work has benefited gender diversity because of the flexibility it offers. But office mandates risk undoing those gains.

[00:14:00] Nikki: Accessibility is another factor. Whether it’s wheelchair users, neurodiverse employees, or those from different socioeconomic backgrounds, hybrid models help remove barriers.

[00:14:28] Nikki: For example, extra parking costs, additional childcare for long commutes, or travel expenses can be the tipping point for some families. These costs disproportionately impact employees from lower-income households and can undermine D&I goals.

[00:14:51] Adriaan: I’ve noticed that when companies mandate in-office work, senior leadership often isn’t there to experience it themselves because they’re traveling or working remotely. What’s your take on that?

[00:15:10] Nikki: It’s frustrating. Leaders need to practice what they preach. If they’re mandating full in-office work, they should lead by example and show up too.

[00:15:26] Adriaan: In terms of making hybrid or remote work effective, you mentioned trust as an essential factor. Can you share more practical tips for companies navigating this transition?

[00:15:40] Nikki: My biggest tip is to talk to your teams. Actively listen to their challenges, needs, and what works for them. Understand the nuances of their individual situations, like location and personal responsibilities, and how these impact their work.

[00:15:49] Nikki: Feedback loops are critical. Use surveys, one-on-ones, or stay interviews to gain insights. Samantha Gad, from one of your previous sessions, had excellent tips for stay interviews. The goal is to create a workplace people want to be part of.

[00:16:15] Nikki: Perks like free coffee or pool tables don’t matter if employees lack genuine engagement with the organization. People need to feel what they do matters and contributes to something bigger.

[00:16:34] Adriaan: How can organizations build that sense of purpose and foster connection?

[00:16:47] Nikki: It might sound cliché, but cliches are often true. There’s a story I love about a janitor at NASA. When JFK visited the space center, he asked the janitor, “What are you doing here?” The janitor replied, “I’m helping put a man on the moon.”

[00:17:08] Nikki: That’s what purpose is to me. I’m not a scientist, but at BVI, the work I support through HR helps improve people’s sight and changes patients’ lives. That gives me a sense of purpose.

[00:17:33] Nikki: Purpose also comes from showing employees how their roles fit into the bigger picture. That alignment with the organization’s mission fosters deeper engagement.

[00:18:01] Nikki: For example, at Abcam, we paired employees for monthly 15-minute virtual coffee chats. These random pairings allowed people from different departments to connect, whether it was the CEO or a receptionist. It fostered a sense of community.

[00:18:19] Nikki: Another example is when I worked in antibodies during COVID. We held lab tours and product insight sessions, helping employees understand the science behind their work. That knowledge gave us pride and a stronger connection to the company’s mission.

[00:19:04] Nikki: At BVI, we celebrated World Sight Day with a charity event at our UK site. Employees wore goggles simulating different eye conditions to gain a small insight into the daily challenges of those with sight loss. It also highlighted how our work directly impacts patients.

[00:19:50] Nikki: Another effective strategy is creating Employee Resource Groups (ERGs). These groups don’t need to be HR- or leader-led—in fact, it’s better if they aren’t. They bring employees with shared experiences together, fostering a sense of belonging and engagement.

[00:20:43] Nikki: ERGs can also serve as sounding boards for leadership. For example, if you’re planning workforce changes or return-to-office policies, ERGs can provide valuable insights and act as advocates for thoughtful implementation.

[00:20:49] Adriaan: Have you ever seen setups where hybrid or remote models didn’t work as intended?

[00:20:54] Nikki: Yes. Over the past few years, I’ve seen cases where organizations hired many remote employees but didn’t put enough effort into fostering connection or collaboration.

[00:21:01] Nikki: Disengagement can grow in these environments. Employees might think, “I can do my job fully remotely from home—I don’t need to attend this meeting or connect with my colleagues.” That mindset can lead to isolation.

[00:21:21] Nikki: I also worry about the next generation of workers. Early in their careers, people need mentorship and on-the-job learning that often happens organically in an office. For example, junior HR team members might overhear conversations and learn from them or ask questions spontaneously.

[00:21:54] Nikki: Those informal learning moments are harder to replicate remotely. Some companies address this with virtual chats or interactive games, but it requires deliberate effort. You can’t just expect connection to happen naturally.

[00:22:24] Adriaan: I recently read a study by Atlassian, a fully remote company. Their white paper on learnings after 1,000 days of remote work had some interesting insights.

[00:22:43] Adriaan: Personally, I struggle with running a fully remote company. As we grow, it’s harder to onboard people into the culture and ensure they feel connected.

[00:23:08] Adriaan: At Matchr, client teams work closely together, but those on different accounts rarely interact. Even in all-hands meetings or social activities, people tend to listen on mute and then move on with their day. Building personal connections is tough.

[00:23:27] Adriaan: I also miss the energy of an office, even though I love the flexibility of remote work. Atlassian still has offices and brings people together periodically. Recently, we did the same, gathering our European team for the first time. Every single person appreciated it and felt reenergized afterward.

[00:24:22] Nikki: That’s so important. There’s another study, I think from Microsoft, that looked at employee activity over three years. It found that during remote work, existing connections continued, but forging new connections was harder.

[00:24:58] Nikki: I’m a huge advocate for hybrid models—whether that’s two days, three days, or fully remote with intentional in-person meetups. But you have to be thoughtful about fostering those connections.

[00:25:15] Nikki: When I bring new leadership teams together, I use psychometric tools like Insights Discovery to help them understand each other on a human level. I also encourage sharing personal stories or bringing items that represent something meaningful to them.

[00:25:50] Nikki: I’ve also done activities where people find someone they don’t know, identify three things they have in common, and share them with the group. It’s simple but effective. Those shared connections often spark conversations later.

[00:26:33] Nikki: As leaders, we have a responsibility to facilitate these moments of connection. That’s where we can add real value.

[00:26:43] Adriaan: Nikki, this was such a pleasure. This is a topic so relevant to many in our industry. What’s the best way for our audience to connect with you?

[00:26:52] Nikki: LinkedIn is the best place to find me. I love connecting with like-minded professionals.

[00:26:56] Adriaan: Perfect. Nikki, thank you so much for being on the podcast, and we’ll be in touch.

[00:26:58] Nikki: Thank you.